【访谈】伊安·迈克迪米德：升腾的黑暗原力

August

（Ian McDiarmid: Dark Force Rising）

2002年1月24日

神秘的男人（The Man of Mystery）

He was Senator Palpatine in The Phantom Menace and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Now, in an exclusive Insider interview, Ian McDiarmid talks about bridging the gap as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine in Episodes II and III of the Star Wars saga.
在《幽灵的威胁》中，他是帕尔帕汀参议员，在《绝地归来》中则是帝国的皇帝。现在，在《知情者》独家专访中，伊安·迈克迪米德谈到了给《星战》传奇的第2、3集中的最高议长帕尔帕汀做的过渡。

When Darth Vader first burst on the scene in 1977, storming into the Rebel Blockade Runner amid smoke, stormtroopers, and blaster fire, it was impossible to think of him as anything but the ultimate villain of Star Wars. It seemed there could be no soul darker, no mind more evil, no heart more cold.
1977年，当达斯·维达最初出现在银幕上，伴着烟雾、暴风突击队和激光枪的光束，大步走进反抗军偷越封锁线飞船的船舱时，除了把他看成《星战》中的头号反派外，让人很难再做他想。看起来不会有比他更黑暗的灵魂，更邪恶的思想，更冷酷的心了。

That was before we met the Emperor.
那是我们遇见皇帝之前的事。

As Darth Vader himself put it, "The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."
正如达斯·维达自己定义的一样：“皇帝不象我这样仁慈。”

Sure enough, in Return of the Jedi, we learned quickly that Vader was but a pawn in his master's dark game of galactic domination. The Emperor, from the moment he first touched down on Death Star II, made it clear that it was he who was in charge all along. By the end, we saw that Vader could actually be a hero, and that the ultimate villain of the Star Wars saga was a hunched-over old man with piercing yellow eyes, black robes, and a distinctively chilling voice.
毫无疑问，在《绝地归来》中，我们立即意识到，维达只不过是他主人黑暗的银河统治游戏中的一个卒子而已。从他初次驾临死星2号的那一刻起，皇帝让人们更清楚地认识到，是他在自始至终掌控着一切。到了电影结尾处，我们看见维达真的可以成为一个英雄，《星战》传奇中的终极坏蛋，是一个弯腰驼背的老人，他有一双锐利的黄眼睛，身穿黑袍，说话是一种特殊的冰冷腔调。

To pull off the crucial role of the Emperor (who first appeared briefly as a hologram voiced by Clive Revill in The Empire Strikes Back), George Lucas and Jedi director Richard Marquand turned to Ian McDiarmid, a charismatic British stage actor then in his mid-30s. McDiarmid sunk his teeth into his first major film role, emerging from marathon make-up sessions to create a modern day icon of cinematic evil.
为了塑造皇帝这个关键角色（这个角色第一次露面是在《帝国反击战》中，以全息影像的方式做短暂出场，由克莱夫·莱维尔配音），乔治·卢卡斯和《绝地归来》的导演理查德·玛奎德求助于伊安·迈克迪米德，一个当年30多岁的极富魅力的英国舞台剧演员。迈克·迪米德咬紧牙关，投入到他的第一个主要电影角色中去，经历了马拉松式的化妆历程以塑造出一个现代经典的电影反派形象。

No wonder that 16 years later, Lucas again enlisted McDiarmid to play a young Senator Palpatine in Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace, making him one of the few performers from the classic trilogy to reprise his character in the prequels.
16年后，卢卡斯再次招募迈克迪米德到《星战I：幽灵的威胁》中扮演年轻时代的参议员帕尔帕汀也就不足为奇了，这让他成为了在前传中再次扮演经典三部曲中的同一角色的少数几个演员之一。

Once again drawing on a tremendous reservoir of experience in the theatre, McDiarmid (who in the meantime had also appeared in the Frank Oz-directed comedy Dirty Rotten Scoundrels and the Oscar-nominated Restoration) played Palpatine as a smooth charmer who manages to maneuver Chancellor Valorum out of office' and himself in' even as his home planet of Naboo is under siege, and all with a smile on his face and a spring in his step.
再次运用在剧院积累的极其丰富的舞台经验，迈克迪米德将帕尔帕汀塑造成一个安详而有魅力的人，即使在自己的家乡星球纳布遭受围攻时，他仍然设法使最高议长瓦洛姆自动卸任，他自己取而代之，在此期间，他始终面带微笑，步履轻盈。

Naturally, McDiarmid returns for Episode II, luxuriating in his character's new position as Supreme Chancellor and looking forward to continuing his rise in Episode III. No longer the new kid on the block, McDiarmid is now a Star Wars vet and fan favorite from both the classic and prequel eras.
自然地，迈克迪米德重返EP2，沉溺在他这个角色的新身份中——最高议长，并且期盼着在EP3中的进一步高升。现在迈克迪米德不再是影片中的新人，而是个《星战》老手，以及经典三部曲和前传三部曲中影迷最喜爱的人物。

In between filming Episodes I and II, the Scottish-born actor, an early drama school classmate of Denis Lawson (Wedge), took a role in Tim Burton's blockbuster Sleepy Hollow (with Star Wars actors Christopher Lee and Ray Park) and continued to focus on running the Almeida Theatre, the thriving and popular North London playhouse where he serves as joint artistic director with Jonathan Kent.
在EP1和EP2的拍摄间歇，这位出生于苏格兰的演员，丹尼斯·劳森（Wedge的扮演者）早期戏剧学院的同班同学，在蒂姆·伯顿执导的巨片《沉睡谷》中扮演了一个角色（同时参演的还有《星战》演员克里斯托弗·李和雷·帕克），并且继续专注于艾尔梅达剧院的演出，这家剧院是北伦敦最兴旺并大受欢迎的一家剧院，他在这里和乔纳森·肯特一起担任艺术导演。

The duo were awarded the Theatrical Achievement of the Year award by London's Evening Standard in 1998 for their work transforming the once-obscure playhouse into one of the region's most acclaimed theatres.
这对搭档在1998年获得了伦敦晚会权威机构颁发的年度戏剧成就奖，因为他们成功地将一家一度默默无闻的剧场变成了当地最受欢迎的大剧院。

McDiarmid was starring at the Almeida as Prospero in Shakespeare's The Tempest when the Insider caught up with him. The production was the last at the theatre before a 14-month renovation project, during which time the Almeida will continue to produce plays at a converted bus station across town.
当《知情者》杂志找到迈克迪米德时，他正在艾尔梅达剧院上演的莎士比亚名剧《暴风雨》中扮演普洛斯彼罗。这是这家剧院进行为期14个月的装修之前上演的最后一出戏，在装修期间，艾尔梅达剧院会继续在一个横越小镇的改装过的公交车站上演戏剧。

The last time we interviewed McDiarmid (Insider #37), Episode I hadn't come out yet, and we had tons of questions about Return of the Jedi. But this time, the first thing we wanted to talk about was Episode II -- even though so much about the story is still top secret.
上一次我们采访迈克迪米德时（《知情者》第37期），EP1还没有上映，而我们对《绝地归来》有一大堆的问题。但是这一次，我们想谈论的首要问题是EP2——即使这个故事的绝大多数剧情仍属于最高机密。

Let's get this out of the way right off the bat. There is a lot about your work in the prequels that we can't talk about yet. Why is it necessary to keep so much about Palpatine a mystery?
让我们立即开始这个话题。你在前传中的许多工作我们仍然不能谈论。为什么有必要对关于帕尔帕汀的这么多事情保守秘密？

The principal answer to that, of course, is that he is a man of mystery. That is how he exercises, maintains, and increases his power -- by choosing what he's public about. He's the great political manipulator of all time.
符合这个的首要条件，当然，就是他本身就是一个神秘的男人。这就是他如何积聚、维持并且形成自己力量的方法——依靠选择做公众喜欢的事（？）。他始终是一个政治操纵者。

I found it interesting in Episode I to watch the wheels turning in Senator Palpatine's mind. We sense he's up to no good, yet we never see him actually do anything sinister.
我觉得在EP1中看见参议员帕尔帕汀的思绪里转着念头是十分有趣的。虽然我们从没有看见他做过什么阴险的事，但仍然感觉到他不怀好意。

Yes, that's probably the most interesting aspect of the part for me. Palpatine appears to be a hard-working politician -- and when you say the word politician, immediately you think about equivocation, which is the nature of the job. But at the same time, I know that underneath all that is an evil soul. The undercurrents are always there in his mind and in his gut.
没错，这也许是我这个角色最有趣的方面。帕尔帕汀以一个工作勤勉的政客形象出场——而当你说“政客”这个词时，你马上会想到摸棱两可的话，这就是这个工作的本质。但是同时，我知道在所有这些表象下面是一颗邪恶的灵魂。这股暗流一直都在他的思想和他的内心里存在着。

Everything he does is an act of pure hypocrisy, and that's interesting to play. I suppose it's rather like playing Iago. All the characters in the play -- including Othello until the end -- think that "Honest Iago" is a decent guy doing his job, and he's quite liked. But at the same time there's a tremendous evil subconscious in operation.
他所做的每件事都是纯粹的伪善的表演，而这个表演起来很有趣。我认为这更象在扮演埃古（莎士比亚悲剧《奥塞罗》中的反派）。这出戏剧中的所有角色——包括奥塞罗，直到结尾时——都认为“诚实的埃古”是忠于职守的正派人，而他确实象这么回事。但是同时，在他的行为中有着极大的邪恶意图。

权力的锻炼（The Exercise of Power）

How do you as an actor convey trustworthiness to the characters around Palpatine while simultaneously signaling to the audience not to trust him?
作为一个演员，你如何在帕尔帕汀身上传达出这种可信赖的特质，同时又暗示观众不要相信他呢？

I suppose that, in a sense, he is hyper-sincere -- defensively sincere. He is a supreme actor. He has to be even more convincing than somebody who isn't behaving in a schizophrenic fashion, so he's extra charming, or extra professional -- and for those who are looking for clues, that's almost where you can see them. He's super-sincere.
我猜，在某种意义上，他诚挚得过分——防御性地诚挚。他是个了不起的演员。他必须比那些行为举止没有精神分裂症状的人表现得更加有说服力，因此他特别的有魅力，或者说特别的专业——而对那些一直在留心线索的人而言，这几乎就在你可以发现的地方。他是个超级诚挚的人。

There's a moment in one scene of the new film where tears almost appear in his eye. These are crocodile tears, but for all those in the movie, and perhaps watching the movie itself, they'll see he is apparently moved -- and of course, he is. He can just do it. He can, as it were, turn it on. And I suppose for him, it's also a bit of a turn-on -- the pure exercise of power is what he's all about. That's the only thing he's interested in and the only thing that can satisfy him -- which makes him completely fascinating to play, because it is an evil soul. He is more evil than the devil. At least Satan fell -- he has a history, and it's one of revenge.
在新一集电影中有一个镜头，帕尔帕汀的眼中几乎涌出了泪水。那是鳄鱼的眼泪，但对电影中的所有人物来说，也许只是看着这个电影本身，他们会看到他显然被感动了——当然，他确实被感动了。他就是可以这样做。他可以，就好象随时转换一样。而我为他设想，这也是一点刺激——纯粹的权力演练是他的全部。这是他唯一感兴趣的事，也是唯一可以让他感到满足的事——这让他完全沉迷于表演，因为他有一颗邪恶的灵魂。他比魔鬼更邪恶。至少撒旦堕落了——他有一段历史，而这是一种报复。

But the Emperor -- well, I don't know all the details, but who does of the Sith? -- is an independent agent who just lives for the exercise of power. He doesn't know what scruples are, let alone have any. The only emotion that manifests itself truly is the one seen just before he meets his end, if that's what he meets, in Jedi -- and then that's pure anger, when he realizes that he hasn't succeeded in manipulating young Skywalker. So he has to kill him, and he tries to do that with unadulterated fury.
但是皇帝——哦，我不知道所有的细节，但是西斯里还有谁？——他是一个独立的代理人，只为操纵权力而活。他不知道什么是犹豫，不管有没有这种东西。唯一真正展露出来的情感是《绝地归来》中他死前的那一时刻，如果那就是他要面对的——接着就是纯粹的愤怒，当他意识到自己没能成功地操纵小天行者。因此他必须杀死他，而他伴着纯粹的狂怒下了杀手。

He has no sorrow about his mistakes, just pure anger?
对于自己的错误，他没有悲哀，只是纯粹的愤怒？

Just anger. And his great strength is that he's not fearful, which of course is also young Skywalker's great strength, and ultimately Vader's too. It's understanding both sides of fear -- how it's important not to be fearful in order to not stop yourself from doing things you believe and know to be right. At the same time, it's on the dark side -- terror is what he specializes in. It's what motivates him and governs his every action -- his understanding of the nature of terror. He believes that everybody can be terrorized, or seduced by one thing or another.
只有愤怒。而他最伟大的实力就在于他无所畏惧，这当然也是小天行者的伟大实力，基本上维达也是。这是对恐惧的两方面的理解——为了不阻止你去做某件你信奉并且知道是正确的事而不让自己恐惧有多重要。但同时，这是处在黑暗面——恐惧是他专门研究的项目。这激发他并且操控着他的每一步行动——他对于恐惧这种本性的理解。他相信每个人都可以被吓倒，或者被某件事或其他事所引诱。

But he's ultimately proven wrong.
但最后他的观点被证明是错的。

Yes, he is, but not until the end of the movie, at the very critical moment -- as he succeeded with the father, will he succeed with the son? And he doesn't, because the father refuses to let him succeed with the son -- which is what makes it fascinating.
是的，他是，但这是直到影片结束时的事，在那个最关键的时刻——象他成功地控制了父亲一样，他能否在儿子身上也成功？而他没有，因为父亲拒绝让他在儿子身上获得成功——正是这一点让这一刻变得令人着迷。

Did you ever sit down and discuss Palpatine's backstory with George Lucas?
你有没有坐下来和乔治·卢卡斯讨论过帕尔帕汀的背景故事？

No, not really. But it's what I feel to be true about the part -- and by and large, I think it's the same instinct that George has responded to.
没有，没有真正谈论过。但对于这部分我感觉应该是对的——而大体上，我认为乔治的本能反映也会和我一样。

But as George says, the fans always know what's going on because they've absorbed the story in all its detail. You can sort of work it out. The story hasn't changed. It's a story George set out to tell when he made Episode IV all those years ago, and now he's just telling it.
但正如乔治所说，影迷总是知道将发生什么，因为他们全神贯注于故事的每个细节里。你可以想象出几分来。这个故事没有改变过。这是个乔治在多年前拍摄EP4时起就开始讲述的故事，现在他只是接着讲而已。

Do you know for sure whether you're doing Episode III?
你能否确定自己会出现在EP3里？

Yes, I will be doing Episode III, and that is now a fact.
是的，我会参与EP3的拍摄，现在已经是个事实了。

Has he given you a specific idea about how Palpatine will evolve in Episode III?
他有没有给你关于帕尔帕汀在EP3中如何发展的明确概念？

He's always said that Episode III will be the darkest. George feels people won't necessarily like it because of that, but my feeling is the reverse. I think they'll like it even more, because I think people are fascinated by the whole dark side of the saga. That's why Vader is so interesting. He's complicated, as we later find out. It's that apparently seductive darkness that fascinates people. They want to know more about it. They're not attracted by evil, but they're attracted by the nature of it. It's a very interesting thing to observe.
他总是说EP3将是最黑暗的一部电影。乔治认为人们会因此而不喜欢这个片子，但是我的感觉正相反。我认为他们会更喜爱这部电影，因为我认为观众正是因为这个传奇的黑暗面才如此着迷。这就是维达如此让人感兴趣的原因。正如我们后来发现的那样，他很复杂。正是这种显著诱人的黑暗面吸引了众人。他们想知道更多这方面的事。他们不是被邪恶所吸引，而是被邪恶这种本性所吸引。这是件观察起来很有趣的事。

Why do you think people are so intrigued by evil characters?
你认为人们为什么会对邪恶的角色这么感兴趣？

I don't know, but I think it might go back to your initial question -- because it's mysterious. It's underneath. Milton, when he created Satan in Paradise Lost, which is one of the greatest creations in all of literature, made Satan as evil as Satan should be. But at the same time, Milton found him sympathetic as a soul in torment -- his best poetic writing is for that character.
我不知道，不过我想这可能回到了你最初的问题——因为这很神秘。这是潜藏着的。弥尔顿在《失乐园》中塑造的撒旦形象是所有著作中最伟大的创造之一，他让撒旦如撒旦本该有的邪恶一样邪恶。但同时，弥尔顿将他塑造成一颗经受折磨的灵魂而令人同情——他最出色的诗歌是为这个角色而写的。

But that's not the case with the Emperor, which makes it so interesting. He doesn't have any of those potentially redemptive qualities. He hasn't fallen. I imagine he's evil from birth, which is a terrible thing to imagine. He's not human.
但让皇帝变得如此有趣的情况不同。他没有任何这种潜在的救赎品质。他没有堕落。我猜测他从出生起就这么邪恶了，这个事情设想起来很可怕。他不是人类。

So he has no awareness of how different he is from other people?
那么他不知道自己和其他人相比有多不同喽？

No -- no conscience, none of these things. He's untrammeled by humanity, by any feelings of guilt or responsibility or any of these things that bother all of us to a degree. And that's why, up to a point, he's entirely able to exercise his will. Of course, he's immensely clever, too.
不——没有良心，没有一点诸如此类的东西。他没有受到人性，受到任何会让我们所有人非常苦恼的内疚、责任或是任何诸如此类的任何感情的束缚。而在某种角度上说，这就是为什么他可以彻底行使自己的意愿。当然，他也非常的聪明。

When you were shooting Episode II, were you thinking about how you were going to evolve the character from film to film?
当你在拍摄EP2时，你有没有考虑过如何让这个角色在电影和电影之间进行转变？

I don't really think about this. I play the lines, in the hope that something will emerge that'll be interesting and useful to the movie. That's what you do between action and cut, in these short bursts that are called scenes. But that's what acting is -- it's about responding to the moment. And then you abandon it to George -- but that's one of the things I like about film. It's the opposite from the theatre. You surrender your performance for other people to choose bits from, whereas in the theatre, you're in control of the whole part, every evening, and the director moves to one side. It's neither better nor worse -- they're just different experiences, and I find them equally fascinating.
我没有真正地考虑这个问题。我根据台词表演，希望能形成某些事物，从而能给电影提供一些有趣而有用的成分。这就是你在“开拍”和“cut”之间，在这些短暂的被称做“场景”的爆发期中所做的事情。但这就是表演的实质——是关于对这一刻的反应。然后你就把一切交给乔治——但这就是电影让我喜欢的一个地方。这是个与戏剧表演相反的地方。你把你的表演交给另一个人，让他从中挑选出需要的部分，而在剧院中，你控制了一切，控制着每个夜晚，而导演让到了一边。这既不是好事也不是坏事——它们只是不同的体验，我认为它们都很让人着迷。

EP2中的一次回归（A Return in Episode II）

How has Palpatine -- now the Supreme Chancellor -- changed between Episode I and Episode II?
帕尔帕汀——现在的最高议长——在EP1和EP2之间是如何改变的？

Well, we're about 10 years on from Episode I, so he's had a chance to get on with it. Of course, his status has obviously gone up, because his office is better. The power has now manifested itself. His office -- through the windows, there will be lots of stuff added later on -- was a big set, a real power base.
恩，我们距离EP1过了大约有10年时间，因此他有了一个继续这样做的机会。当然，他的身份明显提高了，因为他的办公室更高级了。现在权力证明了自己。他的办公室——透过玻璃窗，后期制作时会加上许多东西——是个很大的布景，一个真正有力的基础。

The costumes, too, have got much more edge to them, I think, than the mere Senator had. So we see the trappings of power. And I'm also slightly aged. In the last film, I had a fairly standard make-up on, but now, they're starting to crinkle my face.
服装也是，我想比以前的参议员服多了许多尖锐感。因此我们看见了权力的服饰。而我也些许地上了年纪。在上一部电影中，我的化妆还算标准，不过现在，他们开始在我的脸上画皱纹。

I'm sure it was still easier than the make-up you were under for Return of the Jedi.
我敢肯定这仍然比你在《绝地归来》中所做的化妆要容易。

Yes -- that was a four-hour job, initially, although we got it down to about two-and-a-half in the end. But this was just a little bit of latex here and there, a little bit of skin-scrunching.
是的——最初工作是4个小时，虽然我们最后把时间压缩到了两个半小时。不过这只不过是在这里或那里贴一点点乳胶，作出一点皮肤褶皱的效果。

The last time we spoke (Insider #37), we talked a lot about Return of the Jedi. So this time, I'm just wondering, nearly 20 years later, what sticks out most in your mind about your first Star Wars experience?
上一次我们谈话时（《知情者》第37期），我们谈论了许多关于《绝地归来》的事。所以这一次，我只是想知道，将近20年后，对于你的第一次《星战》演出，你印象最深的是什么？

Actually, I looked at it again the other day, because I was watching the re-issue of the three videos, and I thought, "Oh God, there's such a young person underneath all that." I have nothing but happy memories, because, as you know, it just happened out of the blue. I met George and I didn't know what the part was or what I'd be required to do, because it was very secretive in those days. I just knew that he was called the Emperor, which didn't sound bad. And I was right. I also remember I liked that chair.
事实上，就在前几天我重看了这部电影，因为我正在看重新发行的三部曲录影带，当时我想：“哦，天呐，所有那些化妆下面是个多年轻的人啊。”我有的都是快乐的记忆，因为，你知道，一切都发生得很突然。我遇到了乔治，我不知道要演的部分是什么样子，或是他们要我做什么，因为那些日子这都是非常机密的。我只知道我演的这个角色叫皇帝，这听起来不错。而我是对的。我还记得我很喜欢那把椅子。

What can you tell us about your latest Star Wars experience on Episode II? I understand you were in the first scene shot.
关于你最近在EP2的《星战》演出能告诉我们些什么吗？我听说你正在拍摄第一个镜头。

Well, the script came to us quite late, but I knew I was going to be in the first scenes because of the nature of the scheduling. I wondered if it might be because I was in the first scene shot for Episode I, or if it was coincidence, but indeed I was in the first filmed scene of Episode II.
哦，剧本到我们手里已经相当晚了，但是我知道我知道我将参与第一个镜头的拍摄，因为时序安排就是这样的。我想知道这是不是因为EP1里我也参与了第一个镜头的拍摄，或者只是巧合，不过我确实参与了EP2第一个镜头的拍摄。

There I was, with this new but absolutely committed and fantastic Australian crew, on that first day. Of course, everyone was properly nervous. I, at least, knew what it was like to stand on a pod against blue screen because I'd done that in Leavesden [for Episode I]. But I didn't know what it was like to stand in the Supreme Chancellor's pod, because that belonged to Terence Stamp in the last movie -- so that was new.
我在那里的第一天，和这些完全忠诚而出色的澳大利亚新工作人员合作。当然，每个人都有些紧张。我嘛，至少知道，这就有点象站在一个背景是蓝幕的容器里，因为我在利弗斯顿摄影棚（拍EP1时）拍过同样的场景。但我不知道站在最高议长的席位里是什么样的，因为上一部电影里它属于特伦斯·斯代普——所以这是新的。

We had a whole 12-hour day of filming, two scenes, on me, with a lot of speeches to do. So I had a bit of an opportunity to re-familiarize myself with [the character], in a highly pressured context because it was the first day, with a completely new crew. It was scary, but it was also exciting. Quite often, when the atmosphere is like that, when a lot is demanded of you, you sometimes find you have a little more in yourself than you thought you had. I hope that was true of me on the first day.
我们一天拍摄12个小时，两个场景，有我的戏份，还有大量台词要说。所以我有一点机会再次熟悉一下角色，因为是拍摄第一天，再加上一个全新的工作班底，所以压力非常大，但同时也让人兴奋。当周围氛围象这样紧张时，当你被需要作许多事，你经常会发现，你的内在比你自己所预想的还要多一点东西。我希望开拍第一天的那个我是真正的我。

You had to rise to that occasion.
你必须打起精神达到这种高度。

Yes -- quite literally, because I was so many feet up in the air!
是的——就是这个意思，因为我站在距地那么多英尺的高空中！

What was the mood like on that first day of shooting Episode II?
拍摄EP2第一天的心情怎么样？

Well, it was very good, but I had the supreme advantage of being familiar with the set and knowing George and Rick and most of the team. But like everyone else, I didn't know the Australian crew, and they of course didn't know George because he had not long arrived. So they didn't really know what to expect, and they were, as usual, thinking, "Oh my God, it's Star Wars," as everybody does.
噢，非常好，对片场的熟悉以及和乔治、瑞克还有大部分工作人员的熟识是我的最大优势。但是和其他人一样，我不认识澳大利亚工作组，而他们当然也不认识乔治，因为他也到得不久。因此他们并不知道真正该期待什么，和通常每个人都会做的一样，他们会想：“哦，我的天呐，这是《星球大战》！”

But it was a great, practical day, and we got everything done that we needed to do. They work very hard -- that's the way Rick runs it and the way George likes to work, and I don't think it's a bad thing. You really do pump it out over a short period. The pressure is there all the time. But I like that -- I always work better under that kind of pressure.
但这是个伟大而有效率的一天，我们完成了每一件我们需要做的事。他们工作非常努力——这是瑞克工作的方式，也是乔治喜欢的工作方式，而我不认为这是件坏事。你真的必须在短时间内全力以赴（？）。在那里压力始终存在。但是我喜欢这一点——在那种压力下我总是表现得更出色。

It seemed like, despite the pressure, everybody on the set was very friendly.
看起来，除了压力外，片场的每个人都很友好？

Oh, yes. The atmosphere was great, and it was terrific being in Australia. I'd never been to Australia before. It was a big difference from being down the road in London, but Star Wars and Australia go together very well. There's something about the whole atmosphere there. The people are terrific -- they're so full of life, and they have a highly developed sense of the absurd, which always helps.
噢，是的。那个气氛非常好，在澳大利亚的日子非常了不起。我以前从来没有到过澳大利亚。这和在伦敦的街头漫步非常不同，但是《星球大战》和澳大利亚非常相配。那里的整个氛围中有一种东西。那里的人非常了不起——他们如此充满活力，他们对于荒诞的东西有很高的发展感觉，这总是很有帮助的。

How long were you in Sydney?
你在悉尼呆多久？

I was out for a period of just under a month initially, and then I went back to do another scene a few weeks later. So I was there for about five weeks in all.
开始我只是工作一个月时间，接着过了几个星期后，我回去拍另一个镜头。所以我在那里呆了总共五个星期左右时间。

You mentioned the script coming in at the last minute for Episode II. How much time did you have with it before you started shooting?
你提到过EP2的剧本在最后一分钟才到。在你站到摄象机前时，有多少时间准备？

Well, the script was very late indeed. I arrived in Sydney on a Wednesday, and I was given the script when I got off the plane. There wasn't one available before that. And then we were shooting on Monday. I thought, inevitably, it will be in the Senate, and I'll have some long speeches, and that was indeed the case.
恩，剧本确实到得很晚。我在星期三到悉尼，一下飞机就拿到剧本。在此之前没有正式版本。接着我们在星期一开拍。我想，不可避免的，就是参议院那场戏，而我有一些很长的台词，当时的情况确实就是如此。

Does it affect your acting when you don't have much time to refine your performance?
在你没有多少时间精炼自己的表演的时候，对你的演出有没有影响？

Everybody likes to get it as soon as possible so they can immerse themselves in it, but I knew the situation. I was staying in a friend's apartment who wasn't there, so I had the peace and quiet to work on it over those few days, which is what I did.
每个人都喜欢能尽可能快地拿到剧本，这样他们就可以让自己沉浸其中，但是我了解这种境况。我住在一个朋友的公寓里，他外出了，所以那些天我能在一个安静平和的环境里工作，这就是我所做的。

关于表演和演员（Of Acting and Actors）

What did you think of the script when you finally got it?
当你最终拿到剧本时你怎么想的？

I liked it very much. George had always said that Episode II would be a love story, and it has a real sort of courtly delicacy about it. The whole relationship between Padmé and Anakin is very moving and delicately done, but it's also quite passionate. It's a strong relationship and a strong attraction that they have, and that's present in the script. Episode I was the introduction, the grand overture to the whole project. Episode II is the big step of the story, when they get together and when Anakin learns. He's a great and fast learner and has a tremendous instinct. He grows up very quickly, perhaps too quickly.
我非常喜欢。乔治总是说EP2将是一个爱情故事，而确实有一种真正尊严而有礼的微妙感情在其中。帕德美和阿纳金之间的整个关系非常令人感动，而且处理得很优雅，但同时也相当富有激情。他们拥有一种非常坚固的关系和强烈的吸引力，这在剧本里被表现出来。EP1是前言，给整个事件一个盛大的序幕。当他们相聚，当阿纳金学习时，EP2是故事中的一大步。他是个了不起的、非常迅速的学习者，并且有着强烈的本能。他成长得非常快，也许是太快了。

When you first read the script, was there anything in there where you thought, "Oh, I can't wait to do this?"
当你第一次读剧本时，剧本里有没有什么地方会让你想：“我迫不及待地想排这场戏”？

Yes. I could see how the character had developed. He wasn't seeking a power base -- he had one. So there was the whole notion of being able to enjoy that and use that fact to take things further. In the previous film, I had to try and persuade people, but now he's more at home and more centered, and he has to do less. That doesn't mean to say that he doesn't go about things in a persuasive way.
是的。我可以看到角色是如何发展的。他不是在寻找一个权力基础——他已经有一个了。因此整个概念是能够享受这个权力基础，并运用这个权力让事情更进一步发展。在以前的电影里，我必须力图说服别人，但是现在他更熟悉，更居中，而他必须少做一些。这并不意味着他不再以一种说服者的方式着手做事。

Was there anything unique about shooting Episode II, or was it just business as usual for Star Wars?
在拍摄EP2时，有没有什么特别的事？或者和以前拍《星战》一样，只是一切照旧？

It was nice to be able to have more to do with some of the characters -- for example, to have a scene with Sam Jackson. And to be in the same movie as Christopher Lee -- that's almost an ambition realized, as far as I'm concerned, because I think he's one of the two aristocrats of screen menace, along with Peter Cushing. I like to think I've picked up a few tips from him over the years. His Dracula -- I'm sure he's sick to death of hearing about it -- is one of the great cinematic creations.
能够和部分角色有更多的合作非常棒——比如说，和萨姆·杰克逊一起拍摄一个镜头。还有和克里斯托弗·李一起出现在一部电影里——这几乎是个野心勃勃的认识，因为我认为他是银幕反派中两个贵族中的一个，另一个是彼特·库欣。我很乐意想到，这些年来从他身上获得的一点知识。他的《德库拉》——我敢肯定，他要听到这个一定恶心得要死——是最伟大的电影创作之一。

He's a terrific man, charming and amusing and highly sophisticated. I think he's particularly pleased to be in the movie because Peter Cushing, who was his good friend and working partner for so many years, was in the original Star Wars movie. I think that's somehow appropriate and quite moving.
他是个可怕的男人，迷人、风趣，并且非常老于世故。我想因为彼特库欣拍摄了旧《星战》电影的缘故，他特别乐意参与这部影片，那是他的好朋友，还是多年的工作伙伴。不知何故，我认为这很适当，并且相当令人感动。

What was your first impression of Hayden Christensen, the new Anakin Skywalker?
你对新的阿纳金·天行者——海登·克里斯腾森的第一印象是什么？

I watched a rehearsal he had with George and Natalie, and I could see immediately that he is a fine actor. It was also immediately apparent that they had a real acting rapport and chemistry. It was great to see Natalie again, too, because she's so wise. That's the word I always think of with Natalie. She's not very old, but she has a maturity that I really admire.
我看了他和乔治以及娜塔莉的排演，我立即就能看出，他是一个出色的演员。也能立即看出他们拥有真正的表演和谐性和化学反应。能再见到娜塔莉也很棒，因为她是那么聪明。这是我提到娜塔莉时总是想到的一个词。她年纪不大，但是她有一种成熟感是让我真正感到钦佩的。

To me, one of the greatest little moments in the last film was your brief encounter with Anakin -- and it was one of the last scenes shot, just a couple months before Episode I was released. Did you take as much delight in playing that scene as your character took in telling Anakin -- that he'd be watching his career "with great interest?"
对我来说，上一部《星战》里最伟大的小片段是你和阿纳金的短暂会面——这是最后拍摄的一个画面，仅仅在EP1上映前两个月拍摄的。当你的角色和阿纳金交谈——说他将“以极大的兴趣”看着他的前途发展——你在拍摄这个镜头时有没有得到同样大的乐趣呢？

Yes, the scene with Palpatine and Anakin. I tried not to put too much into that. George said, "Just say it," and of course, he's quite right. Knowing what it really means, it takes care of itself. And once again, the character was being charming -- a boy had served his planet well, and he was acknowledging it, and that was it.
是的，这个有帕尔帕汀和阿纳金的镜头。我力图不要在其中加入太多的东西。乔治说：“只是说出来就行”，当然，他非常正确。了解其真正的含义，台词自己能传达出其本身的意义。而再一次地，角色变得很迷人——一个男孩很好地为自己的星球服务，而他获得了报偿，这就是一切。

I think George had originally thought that we shouldn't meet, and then having seen it all together, he thought that we should recognize each other, but just in a casual way. We filmed that one Saturday morning, very much later, and then I went to do some ADR [additional dialogue recording] work in the afternoon.
我想乔治最初认为我们不应该见面，然后把电影从头到尾看一遍，他认为我们应该相互认识，但只是以一种不经意的方式见面。我们在一个星期六上午拍了这个镜头，相当晚了，然后下午我去做了一些额外台词录音工作。

Did you notice any difference in George as a director from Episode I to Episode II?
从EP1到EP2，你有没有注意到乔治作为导演有没有什么不同？

I suppose just an increasing sense of relaxation. I know he initially hadn't decided that he was going to direct both II and III, but he did say during I that he was really enjoying working with the actors. As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely preferable, because then you have a direct line, as it were. Also, he doesn't say very much, and I like that too, because what he does say then is entirely specific. That's helpful, because the more specific a director can be, the more helpful he is.
我猜只是越来越强的放松感。我知道他最初并没有决定要由自己导演EP2和EP3，但是在拍EP1的时候，他确实说过他真的很喜欢和演员们一起工作。就我个人来说，这完全再好不过，因为这样你就有了一个和以往一样的统一标准。而且他也不是太多话的人，我也喜欢这一点，因为这样，他所说的话就完全精确到位。这很有帮助，因为一个导演执导越精确，他就越有帮助。

You also recently worked with Tim Burton on Sleepy Hollow. What was that like?
最近你还和蒂姆·波顿在《沉睡谷》中合作。那是个什么样的情形？

It was the same kind of atmosphere. Tim -- and George is like this too -- would see something that happened, or that you were doing, and go for more of that. So it was a process that was always evolving. It wasn't as if you were just filming a preconceived storyboard. You did feel that it was happening in the moment, which is when acting is really good. You feel that each take could be something fresh.
那是一种一样的氛围。蒂姆——和乔治一样——能领会发生的事，或者你正在做的事，然后从中去努力获取更多的东西。所以这是一直在进化的一个过程。这和你只是按照一个预定好了的情节串联板拍摄不同。你会觉得每次开拍都有新鲜感。

其他计划（Other Projects）

Sleepy Hollow brought you back to Leavesden Studios, where you shot The Phantom Menace with much of the same crew. But how was making Sleepy Hollow different from shooting Star Wars?
《沉睡谷》让你重回利物斯顿摄影棚，你在那里和同一组工作班底的大部分成员合作拍摄了《幽灵的威胁》。但是如何让《沉睡谷》的拍摄与《星球大战》的拍摄不同呢？

It was nice to play a character who was completely different from the Emperor. I like to play a character with fear. Poor Dr. Lancaster, he's always in a state of terror -- and he has good reason to be, because they've all behaved badly and they're waiting to be found out. He was corroded by guilt. He couldn't be farther away from the Emperor, who doesn't know the word -- he knows about corrosion, but he doesn't know about guilt.
扮演一个与皇帝完全不同的角色感觉非常好。我喜欢扮演一个带有恐惧感的角色。可怜的兰凯斯特博士，他总是处于一种惊恐的状态中——而他有很好的理由感到恐惧，因为他们都有不体面的行为，正等着被揭发出来。他被自己的内疚感侵蚀。他和皇帝的反差大得不能再大了，皇帝根本不知道“内疚”这个词——他知道“侵蚀”，但他不知道“内疚”。

It was also interesting because there were enormous sets in that film. There was a whole forest in Leavesden as opposed to just sections, which we would have had in Star Wars. There was some blue screen, but not much. They built the whole village, which was truly spectacular. It looked very theatrical -- I kept thinking, "There are so many plays we could do on this great forest set." So from that point of view, it was completely different. But in its own way, the production design was as exciting as Star Wars.
这部电影里那些巨大的布景也是一件很有趣的事。那里有一整片的森林布景，而不是《星战》里那样一个区域布景。那里有一些蓝幕，但是不多。他们建造起了整个村庄，这可真是壮观。那看起来很有戏剧效果——我不断地想：“在这个了不起的森林布景里，我们能拍出多少部戏来啊。”所以从这个角度来看，《沉睡谷》完全不同。但这是它自己的方式，其电影设计和《星战》一样激动人心。

Does having the set there in its entirety make a difference when you're acting?
有这样一个完整的布景，你在表演时会有不同吗？

It doesn't. They're terrific to look at, but you're always filming in small sections anyway. Movies are always done in small nuggets, and everything in front of you is a kind of chaos -- it's machines and people staring, and willing it to be right, and doing their best to make it right. Sets on movies, to me, are always about small contained areas. So it doesn't matter whether something's going to be filled in behind you later or whether it's the actual thing. It's a tiny corner of order among the chaos, and that's one of the things I like about movies. Because if the camera moved two inches to one side, you would see how absurd it all was. You just have people standing there scratching their heads or chewing gum.
不会。它们看起来令人恐怖，但无论如何，你总是在一个小环境中拍摄。电影总是在小金块中制作，你面前的所有东西都是一种混沌状态——机器和人群正盯着你，但愿拍摄顺利，竭尽全力让拍摄顺利。电影中的布景，对我而言，永远是一个容纳范围很小的区域。所以你周围的环境是后期制作时加满的，还是真正存在的，都没有什么关系。这是混沌状态中一个微小的角落，而这是我喜欢的电影的事物之一。因为如果摄影机向边上移上两英寸，你就会发现所有的一切有多可笑。你只看见人们站在那里抓头或是嚼口香糖。

I hear that your current stage production of The Tempest has nearly movie-level special effects. Is it true you've got rain coming down, and you're kind of destroying the stage and not really worrying about the damage?
我听说你最近的舞台剧作品《暴风雨》的特技效果几近电影水平。你让大雨落下，几乎毁了舞台而并不真的担心代价问题的说法是不是真的？

Yes, well, we have some renovation work to do on the theatre. Part of the project is we need a new stage and we had to raise the roof. So we thought that this was the perfect play to go out on, because as you know from The Tempest, Ariel should fly, and we thought it would be great if he could not only fly but swim.
是的，恩，我们在剧院里作了一些革新工作。计划的一部分是我们需要一个新舞台，而且我们必须抬高屋顶。所以我们认为这是一个值得排演的完美剧本，因为正如你所知道的，在《暴风雨》里，空气精灵Ariel应该飞翔，我们认为如果他不但能飞还能游，那就太了不起了。

So the whole of the stage is a giant water tank. It doesn't look like that to begin with -- it looks as if we just put some water on the stage and built a pond, but we haven't. We've sunk it. There's a wonderful moment when Ariel actually dives in and swims, and the audience thinks, "Why hasn't he hit his chin?" We make it look as if it's very shallow and then he completely disappears. We can almost do it like the movies, but in theatrical terms. We can make people gasp, and I'm happy to say they do.
所以整个舞台就是一个巨大的水池。这看起来不象是开始就弄好的——那看起来就好象我们只是往舞台上洒了一点水，然后制造出一个小池塘，但是我们没有。我们把舞台往下挖。当空气精灵真的跳进水池开始游泳时，真是一个美妙时刻，观众们想：“为什么他没有撞到自己的下巴呢？”我们把水池弄得看起来很浅，然后Ariel就彻底消失了。我们几乎可以把这一幕弄得和电影一样，但是是一种戏剧方式。我们可以让观众大吃一惊，我很高兴地说，他们确实吃惊。

We're on until the theatre closes down, and I wish we could do it more. Various people have said, "Why don't you come and do it here?" And we say, "OK, but you've got to take your floor out and put a giant water tank in." And they go, "Oh, well, maybe not." It's a one-opportunity show -- unless there are other theatres in a state of partial renovation.
这出戏我们一直上演到剧院关闭，我希望我们能再多演几场。许多人曾说：“为什么你们不能到这里来演？”我们说：“好啊，但你们必须把你们的地板撬掉，在里面装上一个巨大的水池。”于是他们走开了：“哦，好吧，也许不行。”这是一出唯一机会的演出——除非其他剧院也做这种局部革新。

In the last few years, you've guided the Almeida to become a major theatrical force in London. How do you decide which projects to take on?
在最近几年里，你引导阿尔梅达剧院成为伦敦一支主要的戏剧力量。你如何决定该起用哪套方案？

For this tiny theatre in North London, we've always tried to re-invent ourselves. Once you do something people seem to like, we think not, "How can we do that again?" but, "How can we do something different?" The happiest sight really is on the final performance of a show. It's sometimes sad, but as you're watching the set come out, at the same time you're watching another new set come in. And it's that process of always going on to the next thing that I think is the essence of theatre.
对这家北部伦敦的小剧院，我们总是力图进行自我再创造。你以前做了什么人们看来很喜欢的事，我们不会想“我们怎样才能再做一次”，而是想，“我们怎样才能做些不同的事？”最让人高兴的事情其实在一出剧目的最后演出里。那个时刻是伤感的，但你看着布景退出的同时，你又看着另一个新布景流行起来。这永远是接近下一件事物的过程，我想这就是剧院的实质。

Do you ever have time to relax?
你究竟有没有时间休息呢？

Well, I had a few days in Australia. That was quite nice. I had a week between filming and I went to Melbourne, so that was a week. As far as possible, I try and keep Sundays free to do very little, or nothing. But I feel if I had too long to relax, I'd stop. The body would wind down, and I wouldn't be able to wind it up again. I understand why George can't wait to get into the editing suite, because although it's intense, it's also relaxing, because it's what you want to do.
噢，我在澳大利亚呆了几天。那感觉非常好。拍片期间我有一个星期的时间，我去了墨尔本，那个星期过得真不错。只要有可能，我努力保住星期天的自由时间，做一点事，或什么事也不做。但是我觉得如果我有太长的休息时间，我就会停滞不前。身体会逐渐衰弱，我没办法让它再恢复过来。我理解为什么乔治等不及要投入到剪辑工作中去，因为虽然这个工作很紧张，但这也是一种放松，因为这是你想做的事。

Star Wars has been so popular for so long. Do you think it's something that will remain in people's minds for years to come?
《星球大战》这么久以来一直这么受欢迎。你认为在以后的岁月里还会留在人们的脑海里吗？

I think it's entered the general consciousness. Just listening to kids talk about The Phantom Menace, and seeing them respond, one does feel that, as George has always hoped, this is a myth that will continue and which succeeding generations will take different things from. I'm confident about that. It's a great story, and that's always what does it to people. A great story is what we need.
我认为《星战》已经进入了共同意识。只要听听孩子们谈论《幽灵的威胁》，看着他们对此作出的反应，你确实能感觉到，正如乔治一直在希望的，这是一个将继续下去的神话，并且让其后的几代人都能从中得到不同启发。我对此深信不疑。这是一个伟大的故事，对于人们来说将永远如此。一个伟大的故事正是我们所需要的。

You mentioned kids who were into The Phantom Menace. Since Episode I, are you recognized more on the street than you were before?
你刚才提到迷上《幽灵的威胁》的孩子。从EP1开始，你在街上被认出的次数是不是比以前多了？

I'm happy to say not nearly as much as I thought. Yes, people come up now and again, but I can still go on public transport, which I quite like doing. Most people who do come up to me say, "It can't be." To which I say, "I guess you're right -- it can't, it isn't." And they say, "Oh, OK, sorry." Now, of course, the minute I open my mouth, they recognize the voice. Then they realize, but by that time, I've gone onto another tube.
我很高兴地说，没有我想象中的那么多。没错，人们时不时地走上前来，但是我仍然可以去公共交通场所，我很喜欢这样做。绝大多数人确实走到我跟前说：“这不可能”。我对此的回答是：“我猜你是对的——不可能，确实不可能。”然后他们说：“哦，好吧，对不起。”现在，当然啦，我一开口，他们就认出了我的声音。然后他们想起来了，不过在那个时候，我已经跑到另一个地铁里去了。

I was once chased through a tube station. They were saying, "You've got to stop, you're the Emperor, you've got to stop." And I managed to run faster than them. They only wanted my autograph -- it wasn't anything sinister. I thought, "This is ridiculous -- why didn't I just stop and give my autograph and move on?" But it had gone too far by then.
我曾在一个地铁车站遭遇追击。他们说：“你得停下来，你是皇帝，你得停下来。”而我设法跑得比他们都快。他们只是想要我的签名罢了——不是什么危险的事。我想：“真可笑——为什么我不能停下来，签名，然后走开呢？”不过那个时候情况太过头了。

So when you're not running from autograph seekers, or running a theatre, you're on call for possible Episode II pick-up shooting and looking forward to Episode III?
所以在你即不用躲避签名搜集爱好者，也不用跑剧院的时候，你随时准备着为可能的EP2补拍镜头，盼望着EP3的开拍？

Yes, if it's needed, I'll be very happy to go. And I'm certainly looking forward to Episode III, but that's a while away. I'm looking forward to what must inevitably happen in Episode III -- and let's say no more than that.
是的，如果需要的话，我会非常高兴地前往的。我当然盼望着EP3的开拍，但那还有一段时间。我盼望着那些在EP3中不可避免必将发生的事——这一点上让我们点到为止。

作者：斯科特·车诺夫（Scott Chernoff）